Ski shootout volunteers - stick your hand up
A little while ago Dicko and I discussed doing some testing of the intermediate class of ski's.
If we get this off the ground we can later do other classes of ski's and even move on to other types of paddle craft!
I mentioned the idea to a group of paddlers after a downwind run on Saturday arvo in Mandurah and we chatted about how this would work.
Now I need to get some names to get this off the ground.
You may or may not have a ski in this class, in fact having paddlers with different abilities would improve the feedback for the review, in plain English we would like beginners, novices, intermediates and elites.
Soooo, I am making myself available for 4 weekends from the 11th of Feb.
I have yet to talk to Lindsay about using Champion lakes but should this be an issue I'm sure we can sort something else out.
I need about 6 or more paddlers and some people to help with admin on the day.
I have some suggestions from Rob M at surfski.info on how to conduct the shootout but people with realistic control measures are welcome to give some input.
Of course we need ski's
Fenn Swordfish
Carbonology Vault
Think Evo II
Think Legend
Epic V10sport
Fenn XT
If you are able to help by attending with one of these that would be great!
Otherwise I will try to source a demo ski for the day.
The idea would be to meet early, say 0800 and try to get through the testing within 2 hours.
If you are interested please state which dates you are available for during these 4 weekends.
Will choose the best supported date.
Over to you guys!
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Think Uno Max for test
I should be able to offer my Fibreglass Think Uno Max for the test, 15kg, so it's a comparable weight to the mid-range boats you've discussed.
It'd be a good boat to compare with the Evo 2, the Legend and as a step up from the Swordfish and Co.
This does depend on the dates and times.
Rather than focus on the flat water ability of the boats too much, can I suggest that they're tested in a variety of conditions including downwinds, e.g. "The Cut", around "The Stick" at Rockingham, "The Black Dog Run" and say Sand Tracks to Swanny.
It'd be important to analyse the boats in regard to the differing technique of the paddlers as well. I've recently noticed a huge difference in the downwind technique needed between the (kevlar) Epic V12 Ultra and the (glass) Think Uno Max, the former encouraging a more hunched position that allowed incorrect technique resulting in Rotator Cuff injuries while the Uno Max allows a more correct upright position to be adopted.
A variety of paddlers is a very good idea, seeing that most of the reviews available are only ever written by the one tester giving a slightly biased view.
Good idea AR Con!
problem with 3rd March
I may just be a woose, but the 30km City Lights race is the next day and I will most definitely not be paddling the day before . . . .
Please pencil in 3rd March for ski shootout
Please pencil this date in, plans will firm as we get closer.
Feel free to invite friends, family etc to help out, bring ski's, HR monitors etc, should be fun!
Shootout Postphoned
Due to a few of the volunteers having other commitments the shootout is going to be put off for a while.
I reckon if we wait until the weather cools off and there are not so many events on around the place interest in this sort of thing will pick up.
As for the intermediate ski subject the Saffas have been doing some interesting if unscientific comparisons on surfski.info that suggests a V10 sport is actually quite similar in some conditions to the swordfish, who would thunk it :)
ARRGGGHHHHHH!!!!
Someone care to enlighten me on all the calendars I need to check!!!????
Is this race going to effect anyone else's participation?
Really the morning should look like this
About 6 x 500 at moderate pace (say 15km pace)
Then 6 x 50m sprints.
Including a warm up and paddle backs around 5km?
Constant heart rate testing
A group of MOC paddlers previously did some boat comparisons. I favored constant heart rate testing at (say) 70% for about 1km, and two or three runs in each boat. I seem to recall doing PRS, V10, and Think Uno. My results showed slowest to fastest in that order, and seemed fairly consistent.
The thoughts behind constant heart rate is that it should result in relatively constant power input, so you don't favour one ski over another, either confidently or intentionally. I'm keen to hear others' thoughts on this.
By choosing a moderate heart rate, you can do more tests without getting tired, and ideally have more consistent results.
Admittedly this would not compare how the boats perform near their race pace, but I think it gives a good comparison of boat speed, rather than paddler performance.
Heart rate Fiasco?
Hey Fiasco ... my Engineering mind thinks heart rate is a simple easily measured and controlled variable that should result in relatively constant power boat tests. Each paddler picks a comfortable heart rate for all tests and sticks to it (watching visible HRM). They all paddle a range of boats over a set flat water course.
I don't know much about ARconvert's lactate regions etc, so don't know the optimum rate to choose. If you were considering boat comparison tests, would you think constant heart rate is a reasonable control over power for a given paddler assuming consistent technique? If so, what heart rate (or % of max) would you recommend for consistent results? Is 220 - age a reasonable max heart rate assumption for such a comparison?
Let's assume paddlers want to paddle three craft three times each over a set 1km course. So a minimum of 9 km paddling assuming a 1km course. If targeting 70% max heart rate, that equates to a pretty damn low heart rate and low boat speed. Maybe the course should be 500m constant heart rate start and finish to ensure comparisons are made at a reasonable pace.
My boating background suggests boats are designed for specific speeds, trims and displacements. If the speed tests are performed too low, then the boat may not be at its optimal speed (riding its own wash). Some gun boats may not be designed for less than 11kph, so tests may not be good unless that speed is reached or exceeded. Other boats may be designed for specific displacements (paddler weights).
Aside from the above, I also think it is important to consider what boat people feel comfortable in, the non technical experience. I love my Viper K1 on a dead flat day, it goes damn fast and feels awesome ... but stuffed if I'd race it over 10 knots side chop ... my skill level can't handle that (Rookie)!
more heart rate
Engineers are the worst when it comes to biology- they seem to behave as if animals are machines and are disappointed when results are not predictable :)
I think 220 minus is a good starting point. I think you need to go for 80-85% (steady with good recovery) but how can you reliably manage this output?
Or else go back to 500m sprints- with adequate rests and a realistic appreciation of how many sprints you can do in a session.
Ultimately, the more you rotate the bodies, the more it will average oout. You remove the statistical outliers afterwards. Lots of paddlers, rest period between each run. ( need to minimise set-up times)
Heart rate
There can be no coffee, red bulls, beer, illicit drugs, between paddles.
How about one of those metronomes where the lead paddler strokes at a steady 60 strokes per minute (or whatever our stroke rate is)and every one maintains the same stroke rate and then see what transpires. This would be reproducable and eliminate fatique and bias.
Controlled HR during testing
Makes a lot of sense Matt, could be a bit of mucking around technically but if the paddler ou has HR info available to them could improve results not knowing speed.
Keeping heart rates below lactic production threshold would certainly help with recovery and hence consistency. Would still need to keep it up to try to reproduce a reasonable speed profile. Maybe 155bpm. It may need to be tweaked for different paddlers as I can comfortably maintain 165 bpm for 15km, where as the next person is out if breath at 145bpm. Perhaps we get each paddler to paddle at a perceived marathon pace, note HR and try to reproduce that HR in each run through.
After we have all done the 500m efforts in each ski we could then do some 100 sprints to show acceleration and top speeds. (also commenting on ability to put power down due to stability?
elite ski vs intermediates
Here's my thinking about including an elite ski for comparison (instead of a beginner ski) - it's generally accepted that intermediate skis will be faster than something like an XT or (perish the thought) a PRS.
The question a lot of people seem to have is: how much will I lose in speed with a more stable ski vs an elite ski. My two cents anyway!!
my 2c worth
Good idea. THere are some comparos out there but a local match-up would help locals.
The Champion Lakes is a good idea, to use a standard flat water course. In the future you can easily add more boats to the results. Need to decide on a distance. People have used a 1000m in the past but maybe longer takes the sprint effect out of it.
Ultimately you need to do some ocean runs, because that is what the people use the things for.
Testing
1km is ideal but depends on how many skis we are doing, if we have 7 ski's are we going to be able to cover the 1km as fast in the last ski?
The idea is for all the testers to paddle each ski.
Was thinking shorter, 500 maybe?
Rob suggested a rolling start so the ski is at speed when you start the timed run.
Would like to get the champion lakes testing done early to avoid wind then head to the ocean for some less scientific testing.
Think Skis for testing
Hi Brett
I'm happy to organise boats but we just need to work out exact dates.
11th Feb is out - mykayakcoach clinic & demo
18th Feb out - kettlebell workshop & possible demo after.
19th Feb - IOP race 2
25th - Canning Ascent
Cheers
Adam
Dates for testing
Thanks Ads, yep, need to nail a date down and work towards it, may need to push it out another week or two :(
Problems with Saturday 3rd March for shootout????
Can anyone see any problems with Saturday the 3rd of March. The only event I can see on paddling calendars is the Oceania sprints over in NSW.
Gives us plenty of time to keep discussing how to go about doing the testing.
If you can help please on the day copy this list and add your name to it in a new post so we can keep the list current.
Volunteers so far
Me (Brett) - Can provide Hybrid Vault. While I'd like to paddle I reckon I'll be running around organising unless we have a plethora of people to help with timing/recording.
Gavin - Carbon Swordfish
Di - Glass Swordfish
Fiasco - Paddler
Ski's still sought
Think Evo II
Think Legend
Epic V10sport
Fenn XT
Stellar ???
Think Skis for testing
I can provide;
Glass 15kg EVO ii
Kevlar 12kg Legend
As long as we can get a date sorted!!
& would be willing to paddle.
Think support
Cool, much appreciated!
you may not get every ..
you may not get every paddler to do every ski, which admittedly takes the edge of the perfect science. Even doing seven 500m sprints is tough. May be better to do 1000 at a strong steady but not race pace.
Or do it incrementally with less boats on more occasions.
Note also the state sprints are all weekend 11th and 12th and there is a sprint regatta on the 4th
more bodies than paddlers helps. I can offer to donate some muscle, depending on the actual dates
max speed.
What about using the max speed function on the garmin. Try every boat and see what max speed you can reach.
max speed is not the same as sustainable speed
and they have quite different properties
XT & Sport
The thinking was to show a comparison between the new breed of ski's and these well known others. The XT/Sport are no longer a beginner boat, I think the Think Eze, Epic V8 and Carbonology Zest are the new beginner ski's with the XT and Sport style ski's now more of a novice ski?!
Having these in the test may show current paddlers what may be gained from moving up from them to the Vault, Swordfish etc.
Personally I think the
Personally I think the V10Sport will hold up well against the other skis in the group and I would be interested to see the results, especially glass vs carbon Swordfish.
Cheers
Gav
weights of ski's
I don't have a problem with doing both the glass and carbon swordfish, I think the paddling public would be keen to see what we find comparing them, then make their own minds up compared to other ski weights/lay-ups.
drop the Sport too
If you drop the XT (which I agree with) you should also drop the V10 Sport as it's not really an intermediate boat. And the more boats we each have to test, the less likely you are to get a good comparison. Four skis is probably enough for one day??
Fenn Swordfish
Carbonology Vault
Think Evo II or Legend (whichever Adam feels is the most representative of 'intermediate')
Stellar something or other, if they really have an intermediate ski (this is about testing intermediate skis, not giving every manufacturer a look-in!)
I think a lot of paddlers are interested in the raw speed of intermediate vs 'elite' akis, so it could be interesting to throw an elite ski into the mix.
It's probably important to keep the weights of the skis similar too, and not have a 12kg carbon ski up against a 15kg glass ski - not a fair comparison. On that note, my vacuum glass Swordfish and I are happy to help out!!
control boat
I think ski girl has a good point about having 1 elite boat for comparison. Maybe bigadski could lend us a uno max (fast, comfortable,easy to adjust) as the comparison boat.
I think the point of keeping boat numbers down is also good. If you know the speed of an Evo
compared to a vault, if you want to trial another boat, brand x, and its faster or slower than a vault you still have a reasonable comparison.
What about a PRS (a token plastic) as in the original test done by rapid ascent.
The stellar SE is probably closer to an intermediate boat than the SR or the SES (which isn't nearly as stable as we're led to believe.
Boats available
I guess it's a case of what we can get Dicko, we know we can get the Vault and Swordfish, just need owners to throw their hand up to attend with other ski's.
Rather than comparing an elite to them I thought it better to compare a slower ski as people are often looking to go faster not move down.
So when we do the Elite boat shootout we can throw a swordfish or vault in there to show the comparison moving up again.
either way
Either comparison is good. BTW got my new surf rudder today. Same size but more balanced. Steering much improved, tracking across waves much improved. Can now turn back down face of wave instead of stalling.
Vault rudder
Did Hein make that up for you ? I only seem to struggle with steering once the swell gets up to 2m plus. Mark Hardy put a double ski surf rudder on his Vault, damn near threw me out of the ski when I went to turn on a runner paddling his ski downwind :)
Atom/Vault Rudder
I went back and forward with Hein regarding rudder options. Then when I asked for price and availability, didn't get an answer back. Shame, I was keen to buy. I was looking for an ocean and weedless rudder for my Atom.
The stock Atom rudder is pretty average. Collects weed and doesnt work well in larger surf. I put a weed skeg on that improved weed shedding quite a lot, but surf is still average.
I'd be keen to see the ocean rudder too. I belive they are still working on a weed rudder.
Alternatively Dawid Mocke (http://www.thepaddlingcentre.com/) also offered to make custom rudders to suit. I will probably follow up that option as he seemed keen to act quickly. Price and freight seemed fair too.
rudders again
I've promised my mates I will get counselling for my continued obsession with rudders, but here's some afterthought now I've got my new rudders.
I kept whingeing to my mate Tony, who has a new vault, how I had no steering when I got on a wave. When I did try and turn the effort on the pedals was markedly increased the faster i was going. When I was tracking across bigger swells I couldn't turn back down the face to keep speed up, I would simply stall and fall of the back. The new rudder seems to have alleviated both these problems. When I touch the rudder I change direction, the old rudder had a 2 second delay before anything would happen.
When we took the rudders off the 2 vaults to replace them with the new ones, we noticed the old rudders were completely different shapes. Tony's newer rudder was more eliptical in shape, my older rudder was wider, had a straight trailing edge, and was about 2cm longer at the rear bottom trailing edge. This explains why I was having so much trouble with my steering and Tony reckons it wasn't so bad.
I'm wondering Rookie if the older Atom has a different rudder to the new version and if simply
getting a new version from Gary will change your steering. All said Hein makes the nicest rudders going around and my new one cost $55 posted. Try getting a rudder for that price out of Epic.
even more rudders
Aside from the forum going off topic ... keep it coming, I love rudder talk. We have a fair bit of focus on rudders and stabilisers in the shipbuilding industry I work in, small changes can make a huge difference in rudders.
My older Atom would have an early rudder. It is shark fin style, near vertical trailing edge, and does not have much width. Interestingly the stock is also a long way forward, and looks like it has been moved forward from a previous position two diameters further aft. The current position would result in an unbalanced rudder, requiring more force to move, but maybe indirectly making it harder to make drastic changes and tip yourself out of the boat.
I'll be sending my existing rudder dimensions to Gary, Hein and Dawid to see what they can offer. I'm hoping for three. A small flat water rudder, a mid sized weed rudder and a deep eliptical ocean rudder, and hope that they can all utilise the one weed skeg. I just make my weed skegs to suit, unfortunately my existing one will probably have to come off or get trimmed, as it is tailored to a rudder with the stock a long way forward.
new version
Just ask for the new version. Yours sounds like my old one and it wasn't that special.
Draw a template and send it to Gary to see if the updated rudder is different. My guess is a surf rudder in an atom would require those brown undies to be brought out of the draw.
rudders
The effort needed to push the rudder (bad cables excluded) is a function of the pivot point, or the ratio of how much rudder is in front of and how much is behind the axis of the shaft. Ideally it should be "light" or easy, at speed and at rest. Easier to do with a deep, elliptical shape and harder with a swept back shape.
Against this, a narrow elliptical can be stalled out more easily if pushed quickly to the max. You will note sprint rudders have a pointy ellipse, are used very sparingly in a straight line sprint.
Aerodynamically (hydrodynamically) a tall thin foil is suited to speed but fine angles of attack (small steering adjustments) and a shorter, fatter foil is better at lower speeds/big changes in attack (turning on top of waves. Swept back shapes benefit weed issues. Deeper rudders more likely to throw you out. Some shapes are a bit more shark fin, with a big base for the slow stuff and a deeper point for the faster stuff.
Everything is a trade-off. Choose your weapon.
when in doubt
When in doubt buy 3. Think were brilliant as far as rudders went. You could look on the website, choose what you wanted and a week later it was there. Price was half that of an Epic rudder as well. Hein at carbonology makes a beautiful rudder, but it would be nice to be able to pick and choose on the website or from Gary in Bunbury.
It's all money to the seller, a bit like "do you want fries with that burger." Half the fun is average paddlers trying to sqeeze the best out of their boats.
I reckon one day someone will realise that a thruster set up, like on a surfboard, with 3 small fins provides the same amount of drag with more stability and better control.
Fins and rudders are the last things tacked on a boat and still have the most potential to seriously alter the perfomance of a ski, yet have the least amount of innovation done on them.
The thruster fins on a surfboard allowed a board to be surfed higher and faster on a wave and increased the power in a turn. Aren't these things desirable on a surfski as well?
Rudders for the Atom
Yep, I had Hein make up a river/shallow water rudder for the Atom and it is perfect. The turning is incredible even though it is very shallow. It has the eliptical shape commonly seen on surf rudders. I do make up carbon fibre weed deflectors and they seem to work well. Typically I make a few up for friends etc.
I am going to be ordering two surf rudders from Hein, however, given the earlier atoms rudder shaft lengths do vary you have to be quite specific. Take your rudder out of the boat and refit the tiller bar back on ( with the nut the same as you would normally do). Then measure from the bottom of the tiller bar to the top of the rudder . This is one of the key dimensions he ( or anybody you order from )will need.
Martins Atom in Bunbury
I can put you in touch with Martin in Bunbury who has two Atoms, he also makes weed skegs so he might give you some ideas on his experience with rudders for them. I got Hein to throw a river rudder in with a ski consignment to Gary.
While they have slowly been improving the Carbonology websites they could still get this rudder option thing sorted out and have them pictured for purchase. Knowing what I know about skis now I'd be asking for 3 rudders when I bought a new ski. (river, regular and big conditions)
rudder
Not much bigger. Just turns when I want it to turn. First couple of turns gave me a wakeup, but i was waiting for it. Just seems to make the boat more precise. Mind you it was only small.
Look forward to seeing it (rudder)
So did Hein make it?
Might have to come down and give it a try unless you r up at a race in the near future. I have yet to try my flat water rudder, want to run it over my normal 11km course when it's flat to see the speed difference.
Busso
If you are ever down this way we paddle most mornings. Easterlies are our best downwinds. Nothing like a cut run but smaller and more organised. Good for novices and old men.
If things don't work out at champion lakes, Busso or a similar place where we can paddle on the flat and then 2 minute paddle out to sea to have a crack downwind. We can usually find a downwind within a 20 minute drive.....just don't expect downwind with swell. We have some canals with a beach and park and no discernable current and reasonable downwind that won't scare the daylights out of less experienced paddlers.
Swordfish
G'day everyone, first post so go easy on me :)
I can bring my Carbon Swordfish down for the test and I'm available most Saturdays and Sunday afternoons. Just send me an email with the details and I will be there.
Cheers
Gavin Gillet
boat test
Good luck AR. I'd drop the xt, cos we all no it will be the slowest and throw in a stellar SR, just to keep all the major brands involved.