Scrap the Long Plastic class
This one might get a reaction. The plastic class was created around 2003 in response to the growth in plastic technology. The craft were heaps slower than composite boats and attracted non-competitive Avon paddlers. That is a mile away from today, where the gap has closed right down. Top paddlers are paddling sponsored plastics to win prizes and gain kudos for the manufacturer. Manufacturers are producing one-off batches of super light plastics to try and win classes. It's gone so far from the original intent that I question whether it's time to lose 'Plastic' as a class - a class based on the material of construction.
What would interest me as a general punter paddler would be a standardised spec Plastic class. This pretty much was the case when the Spirit racing ski battled the Finn Endorfinn and the Davenwood Eradicator. Create a class with a max length, min width and min weight, and let the paddlers battle it out on even boats. Oh yeah, and ban anyone really good from the class.
long plastics
Yes, LP is too big for it's boots. Some good ideas here on splitting and also seeding for grids.
Supergrids - this should exclude you from contention against the LP field.
Amazing how many PRS's were out there this year. Here's a breakdown of the long plastic class - only those that bothered starting:
PRS: 105 (43.2%)
Endorfinn: 57 (23.5%)
Spirit Racing Ski: 33 (13.6%)
Finn Molokai: 26 (10.7%)
Finn Multisport: 19 (7.8%)
Other: 3 (1.2%)
And note the death of the (long plastic) kayak:
Kayak: 9%
Ski: 91%
LPs and Grid Gripes
LPs
Here's a thought ... why don't we class LP as 5.6m and above?
Although, what would we then call others in the current LP class, "mid plastics" ?
Grids
Do the 'super grids' serve any purpose, other than creating an "us and them" mentality? Why should anyone have such a large advantage over everyone else within their class? These super grids are a lot more unpopular than the organisers may realise. A lot of us are not going to win the AD, but our positions in the field and amongst our peers do still matter.
The classes should define the starting order. You should be seeded within your class only, not over the entire field. The main aim of seeding should be that good paddlers within that class are not at a disadvantage. Each class should start on a level playing field and seeding would be on previous Avon performance and events through the year (Marathon Series, Ocean Paddling events), as well as reputation for interstate and overseas paddlers.
Proposed starting order ???
K1: These guys deserve to be on the first grids. They are skillful, fast and as a rule do not hold anyone else up. If you are serious about winning, you would think you would be in this class anyway.
Skis: Once again, these guys are normally fast, know what they are doing and will not hold anyone up.
Wildwater: Same again, experienced and skillful paddlers, with a relatively small field who deserve a spot close to the front.
Plastics over 5.6m: This is turning into a very competitive class, with the top guys/girls in this class being exceptional paddlers. They would be seeded at the front of this class. As they have nominated in this class, they should start with everyone else in this class!!
Doubles: the better paddlers in this class will not hinder the majority of the field. No one likes following an amateur double through the ti-trees or down the valley.
Teams: ??? maybe place here as a form of handicap.
Mid Plastics then Short Plastics: having fun, not expecting a podium finish but want to be competitive within their class.
These are suggestions only. I sympathise with the organisers in trying to keep everyone happy. It is a huge weekend and run extremely well.
I am interested to hear other people's views on grids whether you agree, disagree.
super grids
the little word from above suggests that the Avon this year 2011 may have waves of massed starts, a little further upstream and you will start in the category you race in.
Super grids
Sounds like a great idea!!
rec ski class
How about a class for recreational skis, less than 5 meters. Might be some serious bathtub as such paddlers.
I like to see people in slower kayaks getting the most out of their craft.
I paddled a Finn Affinity in the winter series marathon and did it just for the fun of it.
G
MP works for me
Bin's suggestion on order and seeding seems OK to me. OK on the Mid Plastic (MP) class too ... but how many fields do we need? Maybe one more, MMP class ... Mandurah Mafia Plastic.
Now I either have to...
A: Never use my old spirit plastic again (<5.6m)
B: Chop 110mm off my PRS to make the 5.7 a 5.59m which I could probably get away with as a light paddler, the bow is out of the water a bit more than others.
C: Toughen up and roll with the big boys in LP >5.6m.
All the above mean scratching my shiny PRS ... boo hoo.
Don't forget the short plastics
Some excellent comments on splitting the fields and I really like the idea of competitors starting in their category (no super grids) Although I think seeding would still be a great idea... maybe use finishing position from the previous Avon. Can't be fairer than that
But don't forget about the short plastics when talking about splitting fields. The short plastic category is never going to be won by a CTR, Affinity or 445. The wavehopper is faster than an Endorfinn. The first timers are quite often in the short plastic and need some kind of incentive/reward for tackling the race on these stable but slow craft. Put the wavehopper in a plastic kayak category against the Finn multisport.
need a recreational class to promote the sport
I entered in the Winter marathon series and raced my Finn Affinity. Ok so I was left for dead but that wasn't the point of the exercise. I just wanted a number on my kayak and a time and a good workout. I did the 8km in like 1hr 13 minutes which was decent considering.
I also did a race in a Commanchee (SP) sit on as well.
Some people didn't realise they could enter a plastic ski and are intimidated by the Missle Bunch TK's etc.
I think there should be a rec class and maybe a 2 or 4km race just to get people on the water.
I raced my endorfinn and was looking good until the last turning marker where I saw a Bertram 26 flybridge and waited. My time for the 8km was 1Hr 13 seconds but am alive to talk about it LOL.
G
What are the fastest boats?
What were the winners paddling and what were the time differences between the craft?
Obviously the best craft to paddle is what the winners were paddling.
fastest boat
Zoom . . . Brendon Sarson was on a PRS, Jane Humphrys was on a Finn Molokai. However had either of them been on a CTR they may still have won. The best boat to paddle is the boat you're most comfortable in.
I don't think there's too much argument about the PRS and Finn Mol being the fastest plastics, but if you're thrown out of them at every rapid because they're not stable enough, then they're not the fastest for you.
Well actually ...
Well actually I was thinking of the kayaks, isn't that what the winners paddled? The last time I did the Avon (2003?) I didn't fall out at all and that was in a kayak.
actually
darryl long paddles a viper. a sprint boat 9custom layup ) with a trailing rudder. My viper is in trouble when two ski boats go past in opposite directions. in rapids?? come on!
The seffafricans paddle their kayaks, not a lot different. After that, the kayaks get a little wider and a little more stable.
as the lady said, whatever you are comfortable in
Viper models
According to the Nelo website there are different Vipers based on their widths. What do people in WA paddle, specifically Darryl Longs, what does he paddle? I use a "Darryl" seat in my kayak, I suspect it is an older model.
vipers and vipers
the viper I referred to is a K1, nothing to do with Nelo Vipers, a different thing altogether.
Vipers ... omg
I dusted off my Viper (K1) the other day. Definitely a Rookie on that beast. Put the T-bar in for the first time, feels pretty good compared to pedal steering.
However ... faaar out, I have some balance to learn. That's what I got it for, just need to spend time on the FLAT water ... a lot of time I feel.
Can't fathom these balance drills without a paddle yet ... patience grasshopper ... I hope.
Makes the V10 and even Millennium feel like a barge!
Stoopid Fiasco, made a Viper sound and look easy ;-)
Ha Ha..ouch
An acquired taste, Rookie, a bit like bashing your toes with a hammer is an acquired taste. Nearest thing to a Viper is The Frogstar, in the HHGTTG ("the most totally evil place in the galaxy")
Start in flat water. Sadly, however, flat water is hard to find because you eventually find yourself being unsettled by things that could never be identified as waves.
Advantages: light (easy to carry) and short enough to be easy to store. Don't wear out quickly in the shed.
who counted them?
Hanging over Northam Bridge??
Plastics for all
I believe we have created a standardised class of ski.
That being the current PRS and Molokai. About half the field are paddling one or the other. The weight between the lighest and heaviest being less
than 5kgs. A top paddler would make any PRS/MOL
in the field go just as fast.
The reason the guys keeping up with the K1 crowd is that they are really good paddlers. Its not entirely the boat making them go that fast.
Get rid of that supergrid altogether. If you nominated as long plastic thats where you start! Seeding within classes would be a much fairer way to go!
I am a big fan of the plastic class ski. It is providing an affordable, strong and best of all fast class of ski which is readily available
too all.
Leave the plastic grid alone.If the winners of this class are good enough to beat other classes so be it! We all choose which boat we paddle on the day.
Super grids, seedy stuff?
I kind of agree with Bin Drinkin' on the super grids. However, I think within the plastic class, (or any class really), paddlers should be seeded on their performance in the Marathon Series. I think if you want to get a good start in the Avon you should do the hard yards in the Marathon Series and earn your way to the top. This also encourages good attendance in the Marathon Series. This could be done purely on a points basis to do away with any perceived favoritism.
One problem ... I think it is important to attract good international and interstate paddlers. To do that, it is important to allow such guns to start with other guns. Maybe they need to provide details of their own marathon type races to 'earn' a position closer to the front of the field?
Does anyone else have suggestions on seeding?
sooooper grids
I'm in favour of the super grids, and with a few exceptions (i.e. Matt Coutts not being in one of them) I think the organisers have the composition of them just about right.
I certainly don't want one of those Saffa superstars plowing into me - at least not when they're in a boat heheh - so we do need some sort of seeding where the fast guys/girls are in front.
The guys at Canoeing WA will know who should be in the supergrids so as long as NADA gets that info from them, I think we're doing OK. There will always be some grumblers and with 800 people entered it's impossible to get it 100% right - but it's not awful as-is.
The only big issue this year was that the K2s started so far back. One of them paddled right through my mate Paul and broke his ribs!!
Long Plastics
Maybe what need to be done is the gun long plastic paddlers on the "super grids", race for the big money with the K1's etc and not include them in the LP class. The other classes Long or short plastic, K1's S1's etc race for the class prizes as they start with the class proper and not getting a massive head start in clear water. Classes should be seeded on race history from previous Descents and/ or Marathon races during the year. This leaves novices toward the back of the class.
Speaking from paddling a 515 this year for some fun, I was slowed down more than once by some more novice paddlers (I hope) who had paddles upside down or had no idea of race manners or skills!
Surf Ski
The reason the LP division is so competitive is the price of a surf ski is so expensive and the chance of finishing in one piece is slim.
No one wants to import a ski from the Eastern States or over seas for $3,500 or more to see it get destroyed.
There are countless amount of hours put into training for the Avon so its heart breaking to be sitting on the bank in the middle of the valley with broken equipment because surf ski manufactures don't know correct Avon lay ups.
The LP division is a cheap way to do the race and finish.
I have lost thousands of dollars to the Avon Descent in the past and now have to make my own skis so I know that that they are strong enough for this tough race.
The only manufactures who could make a good Avon surf ski were based in Perth and had competed it the race. Now there are is no one.
Trav
Make the classes based on price
I enjoy the long plastic class. It's awesome that these new boats (PRS) are faster and more stable than the previous generation. I wouldn't have made the cut off times this year on a slower boat.
It does suck though when "special lightweight prototypes" get to start at the front of the grid with the K1's and is a bit of a kick in the guts. How good would it be starting in clear water without fighting elbow to elbow and your pace for the first 10km determined simply by grid position.
Maybe the answer is to base the classes on Recommended Retail Price, with lightweight pastic prototypes in the unlimited class along with custom one off ski's and other kayaks. K1's with their restrictions would be in the next class down... then surf ski's then production LP's etc.
This seems to be the natural order anyway... it's where they're currently starting on grids. Why not just make it official.
The LP winner would then have to be on a genuine production LP and start in the same grids as all LP's. This class would probably only have PRS and Finn Molaki as they are a similar price ($1500 to $2000).
Wavehoppers are the same speed as Endorfinns and Spirit Racing skiis and a similar price so would form a Middle category ($1200 to $1499). CTR's, 445's and Affinnity's should be in the lowest spec class and guys who finish in one of these are the real Avon heroes (under $1200).
Ski layup.
Hey Trav
What sort of layup do you use for your skis?
Boooo, hiss.
The problem isn't with the plastics themselves, it's that the class is now dominated by boats with the dimensions and waterline of a K1 - ie. the PRS and Finn Molokai. Let's face it, those two boats were basically made to extend the limits of the LP class as far as it could possibly be stretched.
Your spec plastic idea is the way to go - put a max length of, say, 5.4m on it, force the PRS/Molokai into the S1 (or K1?) category and leave the LP class to the rest - SRS, Endorfinn, Multisport, *insert random boats here*.
Looking at this year's results, the first LP (Brendon Sarson) came in 9th overall, ahead of the first Single Surf Ski and 8th K1. If they're clearly competitive with those classes why not make them compete in those classes?
long (heavy) plastics
I think it's great to see the LP class of boats have the boundaries pushed! Can't be done in K1s where the ICF dictates so much, so the plastic category is where manufacturers can be creative. And how COOL is it that the rest of us punters can then use these boats??
Brendon Sarson would have been competitive on a dunny door. Perhaps if he had paddled a K1 he would have been up there in the top three - but he chose a boat less likely to get smashed (what happened to Clint Pretorius?). It's a trade-off, the best plastics will always be heavier than the K1s - although I'd do a little dance if we ever had a 12kg indestructible plastic!
I think it's great that the boundaries of what can be done with plastic are being pushed, and that we all benefit from that. Leave it alone. When the LP winners are on boats we're not allowed to buy, then there is a problem. :-)
Tradeoffs
It's a trade-off, the best plastics will always be heavier than the K1s
Of course - just like the a glass boat will always be heavier than the same boat in carbon. But there's no distinction made between glass and carbon, so why is there one between glass/carbon and plastic? Why give the PRS/Molokai a class of their own when they're virtually on an even keel with the K1s?
There's no such thing as an indestructible plastic (even the 515 can be killed) at any weight, and I'd say the PRS is hardly any more sturdy than a glass boat given the number of dented noses I've seen. As Bolders said, the plastic classes were introduced to cater for the growing rabble of paddlers driving slow boats. This is manifestly not the case any more, so maybe it's time to look at changing it.
When the LP winners are on boats we're not allowed to buy, then there is a problem.
We're already there - see Bolders' comment above about one-off batches. IMO when the winner is decided by who spent the most money (or got the best sponsored one-off boat), we have a problem.
punters on plastics
I know a punter that raced on a "one off" PRS, he just asked for one. good luck too him too since it was tippier than a V10.
Saying that I am all for length limit classes and throw the plastics in with the fibreglass ski's. leave those weirdo kayakers in their own class where they belong.