How about a forum for people wanting more details on entry, rules, technicalities, and how to befriend Scrutineers in time of need ... ahem ... hints Fiasco?
I wasn't clear on where a team stood with boats. Here's what we actually did:
- We scrutineered 5 boats, 4 Long Plastics and an Avon-ready K1. The intention was to unleash the K1 on the final leg only. We did this quite openly, putting all 5 boats through together.
- I asked team-mates if I could leave my nice unscratched Finn Multisport at home and add additional scratches to one of there older LPs instead. This I did on my Day 2 leg from Stronghills.
- I looked at the river conditions for Day 1 Leg 2 and decided to paddle the K1, because it's quicker in the deep pools and lighter to carry or drag.
As far as I can work out, there are 4 of you and you each have to paddle a leg each day. You can decide right up to the last moment who does which one. You have some number of boats to paddle on, at least 1 between you, and it would seem as many as you want as long as they all get scrutineered. My understanding was that once you started a leg on a boat, you'd have to complete that leg on the same boat. Those I think are the rules, or at least the spirit of the rules.
If you wanted to fiddle things, you could have got away with:
(1) Swapping boats any old time you like. All team boats have the same number of them and are all 'Passed 2010'. We had 3 blue spirit racing skis. If one got a hole in it, nothing would have stopped us calling the support crew to meet up and stick another boat in the water.
(2) Swapping paddlers any old time you like. Again we've all got the same number. We'd probably just have to swap helmets as well so that 4 different helmets went through the relevant timing points. I can't see how organisers could work this out, unless they happened to notice a large bloke start the leg and a petite female finish it for the same team.
We didn't attempt either of the above, but we did all carry a phone to be able to call the support team. Would we have replaced a boat if required? Probably. If one of our paddlers was unable to continue, would we have put another one in to finish the leg. Probably. I think doing either of these things should rule you out of getting a prize, but not rule you out of the race. Why not be able to continue to the end? One of my big concerns with putting a team together is that our paddlers on the later legs might miss out on paddling altogether. Now that would be annoying - paying your money and training up, and then not getting a go at all!
I beleive you should finish the race on the same craft you started on, wether it be a high or low level boat. Your boat must be scrutineered and not carried by a support crew.
See my active forum topic Avon Descent Race Ethics and post your views. This practice of changing boats midrace should be stopped.
Have a look at Rules 523 and 524, regarding support crews and assistance.
If all assistance must be given from the bank, and that assistance can't move the craft closer to the finish how do you get your second boat to the changeover point, and how do you do it without taking the craft 30m from the river (Rule 521)?
Maybe you could drop the boat off yourself the day before (or paddle it upriver if changing at Bells) and claim you weren't receiving assistance from an external "support crew", but it would probably be deemed "assistance from the bank" for purposes other than replacing faulty gear and the CooC would throw you out anyway. :)
I think you could get away with it with two identical craft if you broke the first one and got a replacement, but I wouldn't be confident of taking home a major prize if I'd done that.
Cheers Juffy, I hoped you would bring up a reference. And a nice one at that. I thought the same, it must hinge around any assistance on moving the craft closer to the finish.
How about the team conundrum? They have a get their boat to the next starting point too.
I wonder if you have a mathematical model that predicts the probability of one getting caught for pushing technicalities in the rules ... maybe Elders should have a crack at this too?
Now how about winged rudders then? 10mm thick of course.
Ok, I've dug a bit more and found a strict ruling for you.
Rule 203 of the AD rules specifies that the paddle race will be conducted according to the ICF Marathon Racing Rules. 204 says that the AD rules override the ICF rules if they conflict, which I can't see that they do in this case since the AD rules don't mention boat-swapping.
ICF Rule 27.6: No exchange or substitution of boats is permitted, even with other competitors from the same team.
The rules need to be clearer and more precise. If you can live with yourself after swapping boats midrace and accepting prize money you are an unethical person.
Well done with the research though.
Let's not worry about this years outcome, let's make it clearer for next year. It is too late to protest as you must protest 30mins after the last competitor finishes.
If the rules are no clearer next year I will scrutineer three boats in the same class but from different manufacturers. A slick boat for day 1, a tough boat for the valley and a super fast boat for the finish.
Maybe, just maybe, scrutineering a couple of boats, to decide as the water conditions change in the fortnight before the race.
Register and park one boat on friday.
Race one boat down. If it is light, you need to look after it better.
& so on
Teams are specifically catered for - see Rule 133 "Each member of the Team may use a separate craft provided each craft has passed scrutineering" with the implication that the craft has to get there some how. :)
For the record, I have no problem with people changing boats/team members/jocks at any point of the race - the Descent is supposed to be a test of people, not of who's got the strongest boat. BUT I think any such change (other than team changes in the proper places) should make you ineligible to win prizes or claim a significant placing in any way, and if you do it and still claim that placing without disqualifying yourself then you are A Bad Person.
Having said that, I am manifestly a non-competitive paddler - I do it for fun, and I think anything that increases the fun for someone (including finishing on a second boat) should be tolerated. The competitive end of the field is a different matter.
Firstly congratulations to all that started, and a big pat on the back to anyone lucky/fit enough to finish Day 1 and/or Day 2. I was there cheering on those I recognised, handing out gels, flippant comments, and what ever else people needed.
I have had a few people asking more questions on two boats. From the response to my previous post below, it is assumed that a paddler can scrutineer two boats prior to the start of the race, but must decide on the chosen boat and not change after the start (or after boat is in marshaling area).
I had another read of the rules, and could not find a rule stating that the paddler must start and complete the entire event on/in one boat. It must be there, perhaps this is covered in a cross reference to ICF rules?
More specifically, does the paddler have to complete the event on exactly the same boat (ie same serial number)?
If this is at all vague, how can it be clarified for future events?
This is likely to be a hot topic, please keep it clean and factual!
Here's a start. A few people, including me wonder if it is possible to Scrutineer two boats, then commit to the preferred boat at final registration, or on race day?
Some paddlers are sure to want to consider a low level boat and high level boat.
For those not aware, you are not permitted to change boats during the race.
Can anyone assist, and back it up with rules or past experience?
You can scrutineer as many boats as you wish (I know someone who has put two through for exactly the reason you give, Rookie) as scrutineering is to check the safety of your gear.
You can only paddle one in the race unfortunately!
I have no idea, besides just turning up twice with a boat and telling them they must have made a mistake when they checked your name off the first time.... :)
It is certainly done. Two boats of the same class, mind.
If you enterK1 and race a DR or a hopper you will still be K1
Only one boat for the weekend. Unlike teams who can race light and fragile boats, with four to choose from. But lets not start ranting about teams.
Confessions of a team with a flexible approach to boats!
I wasn't clear on where a team stood with boats. Here's what we actually did:
- We scrutineered 5 boats, 4 Long Plastics and an Avon-ready K1. The intention was to unleash the K1 on the final leg only. We did this quite openly, putting all 5 boats through together.
- I asked team-mates if I could leave my nice unscratched Finn Multisport at home and add additional scratches to one of there older LPs instead. This I did on my Day 2 leg from Stronghills.
- I looked at the river conditions for Day 1 Leg 2 and decided to paddle the K1, because it's quicker in the deep pools and lighter to carry or drag.
As far as I can work out, there are 4 of you and you each have to paddle a leg each day. You can decide right up to the last moment who does which one. You have some number of boats to paddle on, at least 1 between you, and it would seem as many as you want as long as they all get scrutineered. My understanding was that once you started a leg on a boat, you'd have to complete that leg on the same boat. Those I think are the rules, or at least the spirit of the rules.
If you wanted to fiddle things, you could have got away with:
(1) Swapping boats any old time you like. All team boats have the same number of them and are all 'Passed 2010'. We had 3 blue spirit racing skis. If one got a hole in it, nothing would have stopped us calling the support crew to meet up and stick another boat in the water.
(2) Swapping paddlers any old time you like. Again we've all got the same number. We'd probably just have to swap helmets as well so that 4 different helmets went through the relevant timing points. I can't see how organisers could work this out, unless they happened to notice a large bloke start the leg and a petite female finish it for the same team.
We didn't attempt either of the above, but we did all carry a phone to be able to call the support team. Would we have replaced a boat if required? Probably. If one of our paddlers was unable to continue, would we have put another one in to finish the leg. Probably. I think doing either of these things should rule you out of getting a prize, but not rule you out of the race. Why not be able to continue to the end? One of my big concerns with putting a team together is that our paddlers on the later legs might miss out on paddling altogether. Now that would be annoying - paying your money and training up, and then not getting a go at all!
The second boat debate
I beleive you should finish the race on the same craft you started on, wether it be a high or low level boat. Your boat must be scrutineered and not carried by a support crew.
See my active forum topic Avon Descent Race Ethics and post your views. This practice of changing boats midrace should be stopped.
The second boat?
Have a look at Rules 523 and 524, regarding support crews and assistance.
If all assistance must be given from the bank, and that assistance can't move the craft closer to the finish how do you get your second boat to the changeover point, and how do you do it without taking the craft 30m from the river (Rule 521)?
Maybe you could drop the boat off yourself the day before (or paddle it upriver if changing at Bells) and claim you weren't receiving assistance from an external "support crew", but it would probably be deemed "assistance from the bank" for purposes other than replacing faulty gear and the CooC would throw you out anyway. :)
I think you could get away with it with two identical craft if you broke the first one and got a replacement, but I wouldn't be confident of taking home a major prize if I'd done that.
Juffy lives for rules
Cheers Juffy, I hoped you would bring up a reference. And a nice one at that. I thought the same, it must hinge around any assistance on moving the craft closer to the finish.
How about the team conundrum? They have a get their boat to the next starting point too.
I wonder if you have a mathematical model that predicts the probability of one getting caught for pushing technicalities in the rules ... maybe Elders should have a crack at this too?
Now how about winged rudders then? 10mm thick of course.
Unequivocal Rule
Ok, I've dug a bit more and found a strict ruling for you.
Rule 203 of the AD rules specifies that the paddle race will be conducted according to the ICF Marathon Racing Rules. 204 says that the AD rules override the ICF rules if they conflict, which I can't see that they do in this case since the AD rules don't mention boat-swapping.
ICF Rule 27.6: No exchange or substitution of boats is permitted, even with other competitors from the same team.
What The !!!
Juffy you have out done yourself this time.
The rules need to be clearer and more precise. If you can live with yourself after swapping boats midrace and accepting prize money you are an unethical person.
Well done with the research though.
Let's not worry about this years outcome, let's make it clearer for next year. It is too late to protest as you must protest 30mins after the last competitor finishes.
If the rules are no clearer next year I will scrutineer three boats in the same class but from different manufacturers. A slick boat for day 1, a tough boat for the valley and a super fast boat for the finish.
the spirit of the thing
Maybe, just maybe, scrutineering a couple of boats, to decide as the water conditions change in the fortnight before the race.
Register and park one boat on friday.
Race one boat down. If it is light, you need to look after it better.
& so on
Teams boats
Teams are specifically catered for - see Rule 133 "Each member of the Team may use a separate craft provided each craft has passed scrutineering" with the implication that the craft has to get there some how. :)
For the record, I have no problem with people changing boats/team members/jocks at any point of the race - the Descent is supposed to be a test of people, not of who's got the strongest boat. BUT I think any such change (other than team changes in the proper places) should make you ineligible to win prizes or claim a significant placing in any way, and if you do it and still claim that placing without disqualifying yourself then you are A Bad Person.
Having said that, I am manifestly a non-competitive paddler - I do it for fun, and I think anything that increases the fun for someone (including finishing on a second boat) should be tolerated. The competitive end of the field is a different matter.
Rules: Two boats Part 2...
Firstly congratulations to all that started, and a big pat on the back to anyone lucky/fit enough to finish Day 1 and/or Day 2. I was there cheering on those I recognised, handing out gels, flippant comments, and what ever else people needed.
I have had a few people asking more questions on two boats. From the response to my previous post below, it is assumed that a paddler can scrutineer two boats prior to the start of the race, but must decide on the chosen boat and not change after the start (or after boat is in marshaling area).
I had another read of the rules, and could not find a rule stating that the paddler must start and complete the entire event on/in one boat. It must be there, perhaps this is covered in a cross reference to ICF rules?
More specifically, does the paddler have to complete the event on exactly the same boat (ie same serial number)?
If this is at all vague, how can it be clarified for future events?
This is likely to be a hot topic, please keep it clean and factual!
Rules: Two boats?
Here's a start. A few people, including me wonder if it is possible to Scrutineer two boats, then commit to the preferred boat at final registration, or on race day?
Some paddlers are sure to want to consider a low level boat and high level boat.
For those not aware, you are not permitted to change boats during the race.
Can anyone assist, and back it up with rules or past experience?
20 if you wish
You can scrutineer as many boats as you wish (I know someone who has put two through for exactly the reason you give, Rookie) as scrutineering is to check the safety of your gear.
You can only paddle one in the race unfortunately!
Unhelpful
I have no idea, besides just turning up twice with a boat and telling them they must have made a mistake when they checked your name off the first time.... :)
But I just had to say I love your avatar. :D
deux bateaux
It is certainly done. Two boats of the same class, mind.
If you enterK1 and race a DR or a hopper you will still be K1
Only one boat for the weekend. Unlike teams who can race light and fragile boats, with four to choose from. But lets not start ranting about teams.
Teams rok
yeah, you'll get moderated if you dis the teams this year, helmet boy.
Nice rock-head-on-and-stop-suddenly at the base of Superchute, followed by a crowd pleasing facial expression.